I've heard that Eloqua is losing market share to Marketo- is that true?

@Adam, it's also important to remember that the vended market is still very small (estimates range anywhere from 1-5%) while the potential market is huge. The organizations implementing marketing automation are still, for the time being anyway, early adopters. There are probably less than 5,000 companies with 30+ employees that are using marketing automation in North America right now, with a much smaller number in other regions. Compare that to the current CRM market or even the number of B2B companies using email marketing solutions and you can see that there is still a massive opportunity to be filled.

Marketo and Eloqua are both growing nicely and doing a good job with thought leadership in the space. We're (Pardot) excited to be a part of such a fun and fast growing market.

@Joe, you do make a good point about HubSpot. Infusionsoft is another player with a ton of clients. Both HubSpot and Infusionsoft (who are both doing exceptionally well) play in slightly different spaces/customer sizes from Marketo and you guys though (and us for that matter).

It will be interesting to see how things continue to unfold. Choice can only be a good thing for clients so it is great to see a number of healthy players.

Hi Adam,

While Joe is right that the marketing automation market is growing overall, we at Marketo believe we are growing market share much more quickly than any other vendor. In fact, our revenue growth in absolute terms (not just percentages) is on track to be larger in 2010 than the dollar growth that Joe shared, and our customer count will very soon be the highest in the industry – despite the fact that we’ve been in market for less than three years. (I should point out that our customer count number does not include free trials, sandbox accounts, demo accounts, etc. and that our attrition is quite low.)

More important than any specific details about market share are the reasons for our optimism at Marketo. The first is the growing awareness among marketers that they actually need the capabilities that marketing automation can deliver. The second is the increasing number of marketers and CMOs that are taking responsibility for revenue. And finally, and most critically, is the overwhelmingly positive feedback we get from our customers about the success they are having with the solution.

We like to be directly engaged with our customers and prospects, so if you have questions about my comments or any others that may be posted here, please feel free to reach out to me at jon@marketo.com.

Best,

Jon Miller
VP Marketing, Marketo

Adam
I agree with Joe & Jon. All boats float in this space -- Marketing Automation appears to becoming a need-to-have product for the modern day marketer and sales pro. What Jon points out is that in 2.5 years, Marketo has helped nearly 700 customers adopt marketing automation. So while we're not the first into the space, what we've done is apply ourselves to making it easier for customers to consume this technology and be successful. If you have any additional questions, I can be reached at bill@marketo.com.

Bill
VP Sales, Marketo

@Adam: I think what you are hearing from Jon, Bill and me is consistent inasmuch as we agree that the category itself is expanding as marketing evolves into a profit center. Companies like Eloqua, Marketo, and, to be fair, several other great organizations (Pardot, Genius, HubSpot, etc.), are all trying, in our own ways, to contribute to this higher objective. Sometimes a client moves from one vendor to another, as is the case in many industries. But most of the time, we are all out tilling fresh soil.

@Jon & @Bill: Since “customer count” is central to Adam’s question, I’ll respond to part of your comment. Through evasiveness (“our attrition is low”) and Clinton-esque wordplay [“(we have) helped nearly 700 customers adopt marketing automation"] you are creating the misconception that you have 700 active, paying clients. It’s growing increasingly clear that you don’t subtract from your count customers who move on. This is like saying “I have earned a million dollars in my lifetime” is synonymous with “I am a millionaire.” Although the language may sound similar, the bank statement tells a different story. I know you are hard-charging after a press release announcing you have the most clients in the industry, but to build that release on a foundation of shaky math is deceptive. Also, of course, HubSpot has thousands of customers. So you might want to put that announcement on hold until you catch them.

Joe Chernov, Director of Content, Eloqua, @jchernov / joe.chernov@eloqua.com / me@jchernov.com

@Joe, thanks for the HubSpot mention. We are watching and engaging in this space with great interest - the best part is helping customers for whom some elements of Marketing Automation have, till now, been out of reach. Adoption of capabilities like lead nurturing by our 3,200+ customers is going really well - and in fact, it was one of the bigger topics that customers voted to learn about at our upcoming user group conference in Boston, October 5th.

I concur with @Adam that between us, we'll all innovate a lot, and help an entire generation of marketers become smarter and more effecient ... so they can grow their businesses.

The question that I continue to have, is will we see more consolidation amongst the pure play MA vendors or will several extend the breadth of their platforms to work on becoming the program of record for all things marketing. Cheers! PS, find me @kirstenpetra or kknipp @ hubspot . com

Adam:

Here is a great post by Craig Rosenberg on the Marketing Automation Space and the competition between the vendors: http://www.funnelholic.com/2010/08/26/whose-going-to-run-this-town-the-contin...

Hope this helps.

Carlos Hidalgo
The Annuitas Group

Hi Joe and Jon, like this discussion but am afraid that, even taking HubSpot into account as Joe does, there are many other players doing well and the market is and will be flooded by more of them that today are not known in the US (geographical expansion coming from several players) or that are now known as email marketing solution vendors, CRM companies, analytics specialists and what not, that are clearly moving towards this space. Interesting developments in the industry: partnerships, R&D, acquisitions etc. Nice.

I think the important thing is that the market is growing and that cross-channel and integrated in function of relevance for customers and leads is becoming more important. And that's a good thing for both "customers" and marketers. Success to you both!

PS: Nice to meet you both here as well. I will not tackle how both your companies are (starting) doing things in Europe as I learn from customers but let's say strategies differ ;)

I think we're seeing a best of Ali-Frazier battle here. Marketo does a great job, but Eloqua has made some remarkable strides in recent months too. And the market has plenty of room for growth.

It sure will be fun to watch.

Jeff Ogden, the Fearless Competitor
Find New Customers "Lead Generation Made Simple"
http://www.findnewcustomers.com

This is a brilliant professional discussion/debate. Thanks to these vendors for the comments. We also are seeing tremendous growth opportunities in the PacNW from the mid-market up through the enterprise. This will help drive innovation in marketing automation where customers will benefit. I'm very bullish and look forward to seeing how vendors compete and innovate.

Cheers,
Brian Hansford
President
Zephyr 47
http://www.Zephyr47.com

I agree with Brian.It's been a healthy, business-like discussion with no recriminations. Kudos to folks at Eloqua, Marketo, HubSpot, Pardot, etc. for the intelligent, civil discussions (Where has Silverpop been hiding?) It's a young market with a bright future for almost everyone.

Jeff Ogden, the Fearless Competitor
Find New Customers "Lead Generation Made Simple"
www.findnewcustomers.com

Hi Christopher,

Great to e-meet you. Remarkable that you've built a solid business on $50K of f/f investment. I am sure you have some pretty darn happy friends and family members!

As noted above, our 2009 revenue was about $42MM and 2010 revenue is tracking to be $53MM. Unsure of Marketo's revenue, as they don't make that number public, but above Jon implies that they are growing by $11MM+ in 2010. (Of course, given the opaque way they calculate customers, I'd leave it up to the reader to decide what to believe. Not saying we are prettier. Just more transparent.)

Yours,
Joe Chernov / @jchernov

Hi Adam,

It is really great to see how different companies competing in the Marketing Automation space are having a healthy discussion, putting forward their points in a very matter of fact manner.

But I feel we are missing a very important point in this discussion.

Many small players with innovative technologies and platforms are getting into the scene. There is no competition yet as B2B companies are only waking up to the fact that MA platforms can help them accelerate their growth. Currently, we are in a stage of creating demand and awareness and there is enough for all to savor, like someone rightly said, we all are still tilling fresh soil. The space is definitely getting more aggressive and technologically evolving at much faster pace than ever before.

The point it is not whether Eloqua is losing its market share to Marketo, but that several market leaders in this space maybe losing their existing and future market share to new entrants like LeadFormix introducing exciting, new products and solutions.

Cheers,
Merlin Francis
Director of Communication, LeadFormix (Formerly LeadForce1)

This had been a fun thread to follow. It's like watching two pagent contestants argue who's more beautiful.

The reality of the situation is both Marketo and Eloqua have taken massive amounts of venture funding ($70M - $80M total to the best of my recollection) and I estimate your combined revenue at $50M - $60M at best(feel free to correct me here). With the kind of ROI your investors can expect to get with top lines like this, I wouldn't want to be anywhere near either of your board meetings.

Our approach has been a bit different. $50k in friends and family money in 2001. Since then we've grown by obsessively developing around customer and partner needs. Manticore Technology grows 30%-40% each year and have 125 customers now - hardly the "biggest" or "fastest growing", but that's OK. We're not the only one in the space that's taken this approach. Pardot, I believe, has been quite organic in its growth and I think their investors will be quite thankful for it.

Success to us is consistently winning over fans and delivering a solid return for our shareholders. With these metrics in mind, I think we've already won.

Have fun at the pagent!

Best,
Christopher Doran
Vice president, marketing
Manticore Technology
@cdoran
christopher@manticoretechnology.com

Great and very poignant conversation! I see a huge and VERY bright future for marketing automation, anyone that has a clue about marketing should agree. What I do not see is the “buy-in” from many established, small business owners. I recently worked for a 25-year old small commercial printer, who, because of a rapidly changing industry, now purports to sell “marketing solutions”. I am sure many of you have witnessed the new MSP sales pitch. The only problem with this particular company, and many just like it, is that they don’t even practice what they are trying to sell! I can’t tell you how frustrating it is to listen to the sales team literally beg for sales-ready leads while the owners say that “marketing in this company is not a full-time position!” I believe the company that figures out a way to better educate small business owners and create services aimed at these types of owners, at an economic level that is palatable, will be a clear winner in this space.

John Muehling, Chief Marketing Dude
Check out "Fishin' with John" at http://johnmuehling.wordpress.com